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HDS
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Post by HDS »

Warm Barrels.

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Seb
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Post by Seb »

Some really good points Clarke made. Chopper culls are likely to continue, and the bowhunting being banned could happen as it did in Tassie.

The eradication by CRISPR is still quite a ways away and will need significant controlled trials, imagine if the geneticist pulled the wrong gene and it made the deer aggressive for example.

I think total eradication is unlikely unless something like CRISPR is used. For 150 odd years we have been trying to control rabbits, multiple virus released and they are still abundant, same with foxes, I think we are ok for a little while yet.

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Post by Wallow »

I''ll speak here from a Victorian perspective.

I've never heard of or know the guy who made this vid and good on him for having a go. What I didn't see was how to help. He has outlined a problem and appeals to the viewer to help save our way of life and our game animals but....he doesn't tell us what to do, who to go to, how to help. Sadly his appeal for hunters to get involved is somewhat wasted In Oz. The average hunter/firearm user is very apathetic when it comes to saving our firearms, our game animals and our access to public lands to hunt on.

I've been at the pointy end opposing the introduction of stricter legislation/regulations on firearms/hunting/public land access activities for some 40 years and still am. What I see is total apathy from the firearm community. Trying to get them to visit their local federal and state MP,s write letters to politicians, join hunting/firearm organizations so as to contribute membership fees to help fight the anti us people. The general attitude seems to be "they'll never do that, some one will step up and fight for us, I'm too busy hunting so I can't help with the fight" ad nauseam.

Our opposition is well educated, very well financed and have the time and the will to try and shut us down. Yes...there are some very good people fighting for us but we need more and they also need money. Lots of money.

Seb..the end can come virtually overnight with the stroke of a pen which we won't even see coming. The Victorian parliament banned the hound hunting of sambar after viewing one hunters short video of fox hounds attacking a deer. It took a huge effort to re-instate hound hunting but not with the foxhounds.

The imminent danger to us is from the animal cruelty perspective. Our biggest vulnerability here is from within our own ranks. From that small minority who post their distasteful hunting vids on social media and those who do not obey the rules of our sport aka night time hunting of deer on public land, firearm regulation breaches, hunting in non hunting areas...the list is endless. These few are determining our future. The antis seize on these to use against us.

Ah well......I'd better stop typing
Cheers all.

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Post by Seb »

Some good points [mention]Wallow[/mention]

My dad and uncle were hound hunters during the time of the foxhound ban. The amount of dogs that ended up shot as they were no longer useful probably didn't factor into the minds of the folks calling it animal cruelty

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Post by Wallow »

Seb wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 11:59 am Some good points @Wallow

.....probably didn't factor into the minds of the folks calling it animal cruelty
What we need to understand is the general public, parliamentarians, senior employees of various government organizations do not understand us. What they know of hunting and firearms is gleaned from American TV shows and movies. eg on the cops and robber/military type shows we see people firing automatic weapons/hand guns/shot guns etc which never need reloading.

Then there is our hunting passion. For many of us it is not a hobby, not a weekend filler but rather a way of life. The same applies to our hunting dogs. They are our best mate and a part of the family. Outsiders cannot understand or appreciate the bond and rapport which results from this.

As for outsiders understanding what hunting really means to us. That it is an accumulation of many skills, of understanding where our game lives, what it eats, where it drinks, when it breeds, interpreting the sign that it leave behind aka foot prints and developing the ability to track the animal down and then decide whether to shoot it or not. They will never understand that while the shot is important it is not solely about it.

As for he work involved after the shot be it duck, rabbit, deer, quail...that is dressing the animal, bringing the carcass home and then preparing and cooking it for the the family and friends. It is a lot of hard work and by doing this the animal is appreciated and valued. What does a politician, government employee, the general public and the media know of this? Well I can tell you...they know nothing. To gain acceptance or the so called 'social licence to hunt' we need to educate them, show them what we are about. Educating them is one of the hurdles we must face.

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Post by HDS »

yeah Wallow , well put.

the fella has been questioned before because of hes apparent stand on public land hunting in QLD, thus being the major player in guided hunting in qld.... read as, alot of farms tied up backing onto said property- 1 example.

major red deer hunting outfits, all thru the same fella.

the bottom line is Real though.


Youve nailed it in regards to "someone else will stop it" mentality.

i cant do much more, an it is head banging against wall stuff...... an here we are.

its sad to read other views on it, thats our biggest problem in aus.......... hounds V bow, Bow V stalker, all in the same basket to these politian cunts, yet we are so divided its not funny.


many are mostly unaware, uneducated on the topic and frankly, havnt much of a care for it as long as they can do it tomorow.
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Post by markg »

This is the exact situation the Fishing fraternity has been faced with for some time now. Only when the Lock Outs threatened the sport did people sit up and take notice. People are naive to assume that things can't and won't happen, they most certainly do, and it's usually under the cloak of darkness in an out of the way room in some govt dept. Never forget relevant authorities are well known for telling half truths, we have had to deal with a ton of this crap in NSW and still find it difficult to get people to realize just how much of a threat to our lifestyle a lot of govt policies are. The only thing that makes sleazy politicians sit up and take notice is bums on seats of power in govt, that's it pure and simple. The fishing and hunting lobby should be a goliath and real force to be reckoned with, but reality is far from it. Apathy will destroy anything if it is allowed to flourish. I don't understand why busineses are not doing more, lot of money in hunting and fishing, and both hobbies are practiced by fans who just happen to indulge in both.

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Post by Wallow »

HDS wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 3:33 pm
Youve nailed it in regards to "someone else will stop it" mentality.

i cant do much more, an it is head banging against wall stuff...... an here we are.
We all do what we can and each bit counts so good on you HDS. If only one person reading this thread takes it on board and acts then that is a great result. Even those who read this thread and don't act at least are getting the message that all is not well and all is at risk. Hopefully they will chat with their mates about this and spread the message.

Shooters/fishers/4 x4 adventurers/campers etc can win this via the dollars they spend on their recreation. From memory hunting alone has a bigger financial turn over than the Oz beef industry.

It must also be remembered that whilst politicians make policy it is the bureaucrats who write the legislation. Nothing was clearer than this when Howard brought in his 1996 new and restrictive gun laws. They banned this and that but didn't touch lever action rifles. Why? The bureaucrat who wrote the legislation didn't know there was such a thing because all her firearm knowledge came from watching American TV cops and robber shows.

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Post by Wallow »

Just for interest I did find my figures which should be of interest to us. This is for NSW because at the time I was convincing a NSW MP to back us based on the value/environmental benefits of hunting and the finances associated with it.

The NSW Department of Primary Industries shows the value of hunting to the NSW economy is greater than that of wool, cotton, wheat and almost every other Primary Industry in the state.

Hunting is worth $1,541,000,000 a year according the Department of Primary Industries.

That is a massive figure and no - I have not mis-typed the figures.

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Post by HDS »

yes mate there was figures published within the past 2 years of the industrys an economical stand point......... hunting was WELL up there. but what i feel this says is OK, they are spending big in the gun shops etc, time to make them pay for their right...sorry privilege!

its a double edged sword, pending on who can get in whos ear about what an why, will it become a matter of then ....

i copy an pasted your initial comment on the Video on youtube, so as if anything, Clarke sees it. an thinks about the next step... n that is what you said... What the Fk do hunters who care, DO about it.
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Post by Wallow »

HDS wrote: January 24th, 2022, 10:45 pm hunting was WELL up there. but what i feel this says is OK, they are spending big in the gun shops etc, time to make them pay for their right...sorry privilege!

.. i copy an pasted your initial comment on the Video on youtube, so as if anything, Clarke sees it. an thinks about the next step... n that is what you said... What the Fk do hunters who care, DO about it.
Gunshop spends are imortant but only form a relatively minor part of the total spend scene.

The total spend includes such things as the cars/4x's we buy for hunting, their rego, insurance, servicing, repairs, tyres, fuel. vehicle recovery gear aka winches etc. chain saws. The clothing/boots/camping gear we buy, what we spend in the small communities adjacent to where we hunt aka fuel, food, emergency car repairs, alcohol, hunting guides, the various licences we purchase aka game licence, RACV type Total Care Roadside Assist , hard copy magazines, hunting club memberships.

I have no knowledge of hunting dollars spend figures ever coming back to bite us.

Looking forward to hearing what Clarkes response is.

Facebook? I'm not a social media user except for forums -so thankfully I don't know anything about it

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Post by Wallow »

[ copy an pasted your initial comment on the Video on youtube,

Have you got a link for that HDS? Thanks.

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Post by HDS »

Wallow wrote: January 25th, 2022, 9:05 am [ copy an pasted your initial comment on the Video on youtube,

Have you got a link for that HDS? Thanks.
if you search youtube for the above video, or perhaps there is a "watch on youtube" option in the above clip, then hit the comments section :)
fyi- i c an p the first paragraph in relation to it being all good an well to say what he said, but what do hunters do next? basically.
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Post by Knackers »

Don't know how I missed this thread but it should be obvious at least in NSW that they are coming for us.
Deer declared pest rather than game and the money as well as the 2 attempts to get it through.
The latest big one is this new animal welfare bill that could change everything for us, farmers and fishos.
It's written in the vague way they do it now days to add and change it at their will.

The arial culling of deer seems to be all the Eastern states and I would think pigs will be a far greater threat after these wet seasons than deer ever will.
Is the real issue deer or deer hunters?

We may lose state forests as the next step after they privatize the timber cutting.
With shooters being so apathetic and their own worst enemies, the only chance I can see is if all public land users got together to fight.
We would win just like the fishing lockouts, was a great rally but pre-Covid and they will use the covid crap as a great diversion and time to bring in these things and more control.

Whether you agree with Clark or not, he has nailed it on this one.
I think he has the deer management at heart, but to be against state forest hunting in such a strong way lost me.
Not that it ever had much chance in Qld with govt as it is up there.

As mentioned, bowhunters can be taken out at any time but the biggest hit we face IMO is NSW and Vic losing the public land hunting.
They cared little about the local country businesses suffering and closing when we lost access some years back.

They only care about the big dollars that feed their corruption.
They wanted Sydney to open up but it backfired, like me, most people avoided the place and the public transport like the plague.

I helped in ousting the premier and a minister or 2 that tried to take the forest hunting from us.
All it took was a FB page that took off to fight the $2.000 green slips for bike riders.
We rode to parliment house with every bike donating a cheap cask of wine for the drunk on the job transport minister Pierce.
He was sacked and Fatty O'Farrel followed over a bottle of wine LOL.
We need something like that FB page to at least try to get together and fight but I don't know the answers.

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Post by Wallow »

We are well under resourced when it comes to our survival in the political sense. Again I will speak of Victoria. As a total group us hunters have only a handful of people working for us full time. I have no ide about FGA. ADA has a paid employee and he speaks mainly for deer hunters. Given the small size of ADA they punch well above their weight. SSAA Vic has one employee and he speaks for deer, rabbit, duck, fox. wild dog and anything else you can legally hunt plus hunting with or without a dog/s. He also looks after public land hunting access.

One man doing a 40 hour week is responsible for all that. It is a disgrace. There should be a team of people on the payroll working for us. The money is there but not the will to spend it. It's a common theme - we are our own worst enemy either directly or indirectly.

There is a common problem and that is how to communicate with all hunters. Those who are in hunting organizations are kept in the loop but few respond to the call. The vast majority of hunters are hidden from view by not being in an organization and thus inaccessible to the cry for help.

Computers/mobile phones may provide some answers as Knackers has suggested but such comms technology/apps/programs are well beyond my old geezer abilities.

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Post by Wallow »

OK – this is going to be a long dry read.

It goes to the heart of showing just how outgunned we hunters are when dealing with bureaucracy. The next time you hear some-one say they[sic hunting organizations] should be doing more perhaps this post may help you to point out lifes realities to them.

The following is a copy of a Game Management Authority response to a SSAA [Vic] inquiry re process behind their recommendations. It is a public document so no secrets revealed.

It is a convoluted, complicated document which freely uses acronyms and I post it here to provide a current example of the political complexity and detail when dealing with the hunting of a game species aka duck in Victoria.

I've posted earlier on HF of the need for more well educated, full time employees in hunting organisations and dollars to deal with the bureaucrats and their bureaucratic processes.
In their document I have numbered, highlighted in bold and underlined some relevant points.

1 I have spoken before that politicians make policy but that bureaucrats who recommend and write the legislation/regulations. Here it is in writing.

2 Whilst government departments have budgets they have the will and the financial muscle to employ who they wish to support themselves/position. Hunting organisations do not have this financial firepower.

3 This is a real can of worms. When bureaucracy welcomes input of data it means scientific evidence of the information being inputed. The gathering of verified input is expensive in time, the full time employment of recognized research analysts/scientists to gather information, analyze it, process it into an acceptable form and hand it to who ever employed them. Apart from employment costs another factor is the cost of what ever equipment is need by the researchers. It all costs a lot of money. It is no longer acceptable for us to rock up to a meeting and say there are plenty of ducks on X Y and Z swamps/lakes so a hunting season should go ahead.

4 A great example of the bureaucrats ability and financial muscle to change the rules and also employ sufficient resources to support their objectives.

5 Hunting organisations do not have the dollars for his type of research. All they can do is accept what is presented. It would be great if we had American type hunting/firearm organisations with their financial reserves.

Let me be clear here. Those currently employed people in our hunting organisations do a fantastic job of looking after our interests and doing so with limited resources. Kudos to them!
The document below clearly demonstrates the complexity of dealing with bureaucracy and doesn't even get close to setting a duck season and how many birds of what species we may hunt. It is a process explanation and that process needs close examination eg for balance/bias/omission and transparency because the GMA Board makes recommendations to the Minister for Agriculture.

It's a lot of work........I suppose some-one will do it...... :roll:
.
****************************

GMA QUOTE
2022 Duck Season Setting

Arrangements – GMA Response

Thank you for your email outlining SSAA’s position on the duck season consultation process. I understand that SSAA Victoria chose to not make a submission regarding the 2022 duck season setting arrangements, due to your concerns about the process.
We are committed to ensuring that the GMA’s process for making a recommendation on duck season arrangements is clearly communicated and that the best available data is considered.
The GMA makes available all information that is considered during the process, including a copy of the briefing that the GMA provides to the Minister for Agriculture. While the process for setting duck season arrangements is available on the GMA website, under Duck Season considerations, I have provided some more detailed information in this email that I hope you find useful.

Various data sets are used in developing the GMA’s recommendation on duck season arrangements, and these data sets are considered in accordance with the GMA Board’s Guiding Principles, as set out in Section 8A of the Game Management Authority Act (2014). The Act was amended in 2019 to incorporate these principles –
8A Guiding principles

The Authority must have regard to the following principles when exercising its powers or performing its functions under this Act—
                   1 (a)   the principle of integrated decision-making, which means seeking to achieve government policy objectives through coordination between all levels of government and government agencies;
                    (b)   the principle of triple bottom-line assessment, which means an assessment of all the economic, social and environmental costs and benefits, taking into account externalities;
                    (c)   the principle of equity, which means—
                                 (i)   equity between persons irrespective of their—
                                                 (A) personal attributes including age, physical ability, ethnicity, culture, gender and financial situation; and
                                                 (B) location, including whether in a growth, urban, regional, rural or remote area; and
                                 (ii)   equity between generations by not compromising the ability of future generations to meet their needs;
                      (d)   the principle of an evidence-based approach, which means considering the best available information when making decisions;
                      (e)   the principle of stakeholder engagement and community participation, which means taking into account the interests of stakeholders and members of the local community in implementing appropriate processes for stakeholder engagement;
                      (f)   the principle of transparency, which means that members of the public should have access to reliable and relevant information in appropriate forms to facilitate a good understanding of game management issues and the process by which decisions in relation to game management are made.

I have attached a simple flow chart as requested, which outlines the data that is considered at each stage of the process. Click here to view.

In relation to the interim decision process, as the Adaptive Harvest Management system is being developed, 2 Professors Kingsford and Klaasen were engaged by the Department of Jobs, Precinct and Regions (DJPR) to develop an interim model. Professors Kingsford and Klaasen delivered the paper; Relationships among duck population indices and abiotic drivers to guide annual duck harvest arrangements (KKM).  The fundamental change to the duck season considerations process, compared to previous years, is that the KKM model provides the starting analysis of the data.

As has been the practice in recent years, all data sets used by the GMA are provided to stakeholders as early as possible in the process, 3 stakeholders are invited to provide comment and in particular any additional data that would inform the decision process. All stakeholder submissions are then made available on the GMA website.

This KKM model is built on the recommendation from the Expert Panel report. I have provided the relevant extract below for your quick reference:

“… consideration should be given to a simple, transparent process for setting harvest regulations which could then be modified or augmented to include modelling results as appropriate at a later date. Given the constraints in currently available scientific information, the panel therefore recommends that, in the short-term, appropriate and adequate information for management can be generated by a conceptually simple and defensible harvest management framework which combines appropriate measures of spring wetland abundance/rainfall, summer abundance/rainfall, and available waterbird monitoring data to annually generate an abundance ranking for the coming season.

This could take a range of forms, such as a “traffic light” system reflecting risk levels (i.e. red light = Low abundance/High risk; orange = Medium abundance/Medium risk; Green light = High abundance/Low risk). The number of abundance/risk levels could be extended as appropriate, and this categorisation could be linked to appropriate management measures.

The proposed modelling of historical datasets could evaluate and test the capacity of various indices of rainfall/wetland availability to predict waterfowl population growth rates, and thereby recommend categories of harvesting with definitions based on these indices.”
Please note that the expert panel process and the delivery against recommendations is the responsibility of DJPR. The interim harvest model has been developed following stakeholder consultation and now sets the basis for setting seasons while the AHM is developed and ultimately implemented.

Professors Kingsford and Klaasen, in their report, also stated:
We also encourage the use of the model as an “adaptive interim harvest model”, where the model is (annually) updated when additional data 4 or even completely new sets of data (e.g. helicopter counts) become available.

In line with this statement, I will recommend to DJPR that a workshop with stakeholders is conducted later this year to discuss the model after its first year in operation. This would be a valuable opportunity to explore possible options for new data inclusions that may further build the foundation of the model output.  Any ideas could then be provided to the model’s developers for assessment on whether particular data sets can be added to improve the reliability of the model.

In regards to the GMA Board’s decision process I would refer you to the comment in the report:
We advocate that the model here presented be used as a tool to inform decision making for hunting arrangements; it should not be used to set hunting arrangements without due diligence.

The GMA Board accepted this report and in accordance with this advice, the GMA will conduct a due diligence approach to utilising the output of the KKM. This will entail the Board assessing all reliable data sets, including any provided by stakeholders, to test the model’s output. Key to this assessment will be considering whether the weight of data supports the output of the model.

In the move to an AHM, it is important to understand the GMA’s role. Action 3.2 of the Victorian Government’s Sustainable Hunting Action Plan 2021-2024 (SHAP) commits to identifying a sustainable harvest window (ceiling and floor) and the development of a harvest framework and strategy.  The DJPR will lead these processes and once harvest objectives have been established, the 5 GMA will be responsible for data collection, analysis and oversight of the population model (with the guidance of an expert technical panel). The GMA does not set the policy framework.

I understand that DJPR will establish a stakeholder working group to progress these processes. Through this approach, a clear understanding will emerge of the harvest objectives, mechanics of AHM, the data sets to be used and the timeframes required to collate sufficient data. Sufficient data is critical to ensuring that the AHM is ready to be implemented.
Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Kind regards,
Graeme Ford | CEO
Game Management Authoriy
**********************************
GMA QUOTE ENDS